21. 外部化

外部化

如本书所述，整合型咨询师喜欢从各种治疗方法中借鉴有用的技能。本章和下一章描述的技能来自叙事疗法和解决方案聚焦咨询，这些技能特别有助于求助者利用自己的优势并寻找解决方案，而不是消极地关注问题。这些方法还有助于鼓励求助者对未来持乐观态度。本章描述的外部化技能起源于由迈克尔·怀特和大卫·埃普斯顿创立的叙事疗法。对叙事疗法感兴趣的读者可以阅读《叙事实践地图》（White, 2007）。

人们通常带着消极的观点来到咨询

人们通常带着消极的观点来到咨询，常常认为自己的问题是无法解决的。在回应一个人对问题的描述时，我们可以使用语言，使他们对自己感觉更好，并对改变的可能性持更乐观的态度。这并不意味着我们不感兴趣听他们的问题或希望最小化这些问题。相反，在倾听的同时，我们可以积极地使用回应，帮助他们认识到已经使用的内在力量，同时打开解决问题的可能性。

外部化问题

目标

外部化的目标是将令人困扰的问题与个人分开。最简单的解释方法是通过一个例子。一个人可能会来到咨询，认为自己天生就是一个“焦虑的人”。虽然接受这是他们对自己的看法，但咨询师将焦虑描述为与个人独立存在的东西是有用的。希望结果是，这个人开始将自己视为一个被焦虑困扰的人，而不是一个本质上焦虑的人。如果这种情况发生，我们说焦虑已经被外部化了，因为它现在被视为与个人分离的东西，尽管它仍然在困扰他们。当一个人能够在思维上做出这样的改变时，他们通常会在处理问题时感到更加有力量。这是因为现在他们可以开始思考使用策略来控制问题，而不是让问题控制他们，而之前他们将问题和自己视为不可分割的一部分。

例子

在我们的例子中，如果一个人停止认为自己是一个焦虑的人，而是认为自己是一个被焦虑困扰的人，他们就会有一个新的自我和焦虑的视角。有了新的思维方式，他们可以思考焦虑是如何占上风的，并探索如何控制它。在外部化过程中，咨询师试图创造一种不同的氛围，使个人看到问题不是他们内在的一部分，而是从外部作用于他们的东西。在给出的例子中，个人可能会说：“我是一个非常焦虑的人。”咨询师可能会回应说：“我看到的是一个被焦虑困扰的人。似乎焦虑总是占上风。”咨询师随后可能会问：“焦虑是如何阻止你做你想做的事情的？”通过这种方式，个人的参照框架从“我是一个焦虑的人”转变为“焦虑给我带来了问题”。然后，他们就可以承担起处理焦虑的责任，而不是将焦虑视为自我的一部分。

效果

外部化使个人能够体验到一个与问题分离的自我部分。通过这样做，他们能够感觉到，如果他们愿意，他们可以控制问题或核心问题，因为它是外在于他们的，可以被控制，而不是内在于他们，无法控制。这为行动打开了新的可能性。通过外部化，问题的部分权力被剥夺，而个人则变得有能力控制问题。可以看出，外部化表明问题是问题，而之前个人被认为是问题。

应用

一个好的外部化技能的例子是帮助有愤怒控制问题的人。在这种情况下，咨询师可以通过问一些问题来外部化愤怒，例如：“你的愤怒是否控制了你，还是你控制了你的愤怒？”以及“你的愤怒是如何设法让你让它控制你的？”通过这些问题，个人能够看到自己不是一个愤怒的人，而是一个被愤怒困扰的人，他们有责任学会控制愤怒，而不是让愤怒控制他们。显然，外部化问题通常会导致关于控制问题的讨论，目标是帮助个人控制无益或不可接受的行为。

语言转变

外部化要求在语言使用上进行特定的转变。与其使用以“你是……”开头的句子，外部化陈述使用以问题名称开头的句子。例如，与其说“你很焦虑”，语言变为“焦虑阻止你做你想做的事情”。

适用情况

一个好的外部化问题的例子是在个人认为自己是一个酒鬼、毒瘾者、抑郁或焦虑的人或失败者时。咨询师可能会问这些人他们是如何认为自己是这样的人，并鼓励他们扩展自己的自我认知。如果这样做，通常个人会谈论问题是如何影响或干扰他们的行为。此时，咨询师有机会通过谈论抑郁、酒精、失败或焦虑是如何给他们带来麻烦的，而不是谈论个人是抑郁的、酗酒的、失败的或焦虑的，从而将问题与个人分离或外部化。

具体案例

考虑一个被抑郁困扰的人的情况。为了帮助这个人，咨询师可能会问以下问题：

抑郁是如何限制你的生活的？
抑郁是如何设法让你让它控制你的？
抑郁对你的生活做了什么最糟糕的事情？
当你试图控制抑郁时，它会做些什么来重新钩住你？
抑郁是如何阻止你做你想做的事情的？
抑郁是如何阻碍你的？
是什么在帮助抑郁继续给你带来问题？
你注意到自己有什么变化，让你认为你可能能够克服抑郁？
抑郁会采取什么报复措施试图把你打回原形？
如果你继续变得更强大和独立，抑郁会采取什么绝望的措施？

你可能已经注意到，有些问题关注问题在个人生活中成功干预的方式，而另一些问题则关注个人成功控制问题的时刻。

进一步方法

另一种有助于个人完全接受问题和自己是两个独立实体的方法是使用罗思和埃普斯顿（1996）描述的外部化访谈。

外部化访谈

外部化访谈是由罗思和埃普斯顿（1996）开发的，适合那些喜欢体验式工作并且对角色扮演感到舒适的个体。外部化访谈的第一步是帮助个体认识到问题与自己是分开的。例如，如果个体抱怨自己抑郁，咨询师需要回应说：“我不认为你是一个抑郁的人；相反，我认为你是一个被抑郁困扰的人。不知为何，抑郁有时会控制你。”通过这样说，问题就被从个体中分离出来了。

第二步：给问题起名并描述其特征

下一步是邀请个体给问题“抑郁”起个名字，并且如果可以的话，描述它具有物理特征。例如，一个被抑郁困扰的个体可能会说：“抑郁就像一大片黑云笼罩着我。”咨询师可能会回应说：“让我们把你的抑郁称为‘大黑云’。”然后，可以邀请个体扮演“大黑云”的角色。在角色扮演时，需要告诉并提醒他们，他们不再是自己，而是“大黑云”。最好让个体和咨询师都离开椅子，以便清楚地表明“大黑云”与个体是分开的。咨询师随后像一个采访者一样，向“大黑云”提问。最初的问题旨在了解“大黑云”是如何成功地困扰个体的，然后进一步的问题询问个体在某些时候是如何成功地对抗“大黑云”的。访谈结束后，个体可以回到座位上，退出角色扮演，恢复为原来的自己。

探索问题何时何地成功困扰个体

在访谈的第一部分，咨询师向问题提问，了解它是如何干扰或影响个体的生活。例如，假设抑郁是个体的问题，这个个体名叫杰森。咨询师可能会说：“大黑云，我要问你一些问题。”可能的问题包括：

你是什么时候第一次侵入杰森的生活，你是怎么做到的？
你在破坏杰森的生活方面取得了哪些最大的成功？
是否有一个特别令人满意的时刻？
你做了什么来不断烦扰杰森？你能举一些例子吗？
如果杰森试图削弱你，你有没有找到反击他的方法？
你是如何设法让杰森让你控制他的？
杰森对哪种策略特别容易受到影响？
杰森最脆弱的时刻是什么时候？在这些时刻，你对他说了什么？
你招募了哪些盟友来帮助你实现目的（例如，其他问题、习惯、信念、价值观、文化假设）？
你有朋友帮助你继续烦扰杰森吗？
当杰森试图推开你时，你会做什么来让他再次让你回来？
你一定有一些险象环生的时刻。杰森几乎要战胜你的时候，发生了什么？
你给杰森传递了什么信息来帮助你留在他的生活中？

在问了一些这些问题之后，接下来咨询师需要问一些可以帮助个体认识到过去他们成功对抗问题的方式的问题。

探索问题何时何地难以继续困扰个体

适合的问题，同样针对问题，包括：

你能想到一些杰森挫败你困扰他的努力的时刻吗？
杰森是怎么做到的？他做了什么不同的事情？
你有没有注意到杰森的某些变化，让你开始担心未来？
你对与杰森的关系被削弱的秘密恐惧是什么？
你是什么时候第一次意识到美好的旧时光可能要结束了？
面对杰森的反抗，你有什么计划重新确立自己？
你可以采取什么报复措施来试图让杰森回到原来的位置？
如果杰森继续变得更强大和独立，你会采取什么最后的绝望措施？
你认为在什么情况下你会接受自己的时代结束了，再也无法控制杰森？
你会继续为控制杰森而斗争，还是会最终放弃？

这些问题帮助个体认识到他们可以将问题与自己分开，因为问题有自己的实体，如果他们愿意，可以用自己的内在力量来控制或管理问题。

讨论和总结

在进行了外部化访谈后，个体和咨询师可以通过讨论从体验练习中学到的任何东西来处理角色扮演。希望个体能够发现未来如何掌握问题的方法。

学习总结

外部化将问题与个体分开。
外部化邀请个体掌控问题。

参考文献和进一步阅读

Brown, C. & Augusta-Scott, T. (eds) 2007, Narrative Therapy: Making Meaning, Making Lives, SAGE, Thousand Oaks, CA.
Roth, S. & Epston, D. 1996, ‘Consulting the problem about the problematic relationship: an exercise for experiencing a relationship with an externalised problem’, in M. Hoyt (ed.), Constructive Therapies, Vol. 2, Guilford, New York, pp. 148-162.
White, M. 2007, Maps of Narrative Practice, Norton, New York.

本章知识点阐述

外部化

概述

外部化问题

目标

例子

效果

应用

语言转变

适用情况

具体案例

考虑一个被抑郁困扰的人的情况。为了帮助这个人，咨询师可能会问以下问题：

抑郁是如何限制你的生活的？
抑郁是如何设法让你让它控制你的？
抑郁对你的生活做了什么最糟糕的事情？
当你试图控制抑郁时，它会做些什么来重新钩住你？
抑郁是如何阻止你做你想做的事情的？
抑郁是如何阻碍你的？
是什么在帮助抑郁继续给你带来问题？
你注意到自己有什么变化，让你认为你可能能够克服抑郁？
抑郁会采取什么报复措施试图把你打回原形？
如果你继续变得更强大和独立，抑郁会采取什么绝望的措施？

你可能已经注意到，有些问题关注问题在个人生活中成功干预的方式，而另一些问题则关注个人成功控制问题的时刻。

进一步方法

另一种有助于个人完全接受问题和自己是两个独立实体的方法是使用罗思和埃普斯顿（1996）描述的外部化访谈。

总结

外部化的目标：将令人困扰的问题与个人分开。
效果：使个人能够体验到一个与问题分离的自我部分，增强解决问题的能力。
应用：适用于多种心理问题，如焦虑、抑郁、愤怒控制等。
语言转变：从“你是……”转变为以问题名称开头的句子。
适用情况：当个人认为自己是问题的一部分时，外部化可以帮助他们看到问题的独立性。
具体案例：通过具体的提问，帮助个人认识到问题的外在性，从而增强解决问题的动力和能力。

参考文献

White, M. (2007). Maps of Narrative Practice. W.W. Norton & Company.
Roth, D., & Epston, D. (1996). Externalizing Conversations. In S. McNamee & K.J. Gergen (Eds.), Therapy as Social Construction (pp. 157-178). Sage Publications.

外部化访谈

概述

外部化访谈是由罗思和埃普斯顿（1996）开发的，适合那些喜欢体验式工作并且对角色扮演感到舒适的个体。外部化访谈的主要目的是帮助个体认识到问题与自己是分开的，从而增强他们应对问题的能力。

外部化访谈的步骤

分离问题与个体
- 咨询师首先帮助个体认识到问题与自己是分开的。例如，如果个体抱怨自己抑郁，咨询师可以回应说：“我不认为你是一个抑郁的人；相反，我认为你是一个被抑郁困扰的人。不知为何，抑郁有时会控制你。”通过这样说，问题就被从个体中分离出来了。
命名和描述问题
- 邀请个体给问题“抑郁”起个名字，并且如果可以的话，描述它具有物理特征。例如，一个被抑郁困扰的个体可能会说：“抑郁就像一大片黑云笼罩着我。”咨询师可以回应说：“让我们把你的抑郁称为‘大黑云’。”
角色扮演
- 邀请个体扮演“大黑云”的角色。在角色扮演时，需要告诉并提醒他们，他们不再是自己，而是“大黑云”。最好让个体和咨询师都离开椅子，以便清楚地表明“大黑云”与个体是分开的。
- 咨询师像一个采访者一样，向“大黑云”提问。最初的问题旨在了解“大黑云”是如何成功地困扰个体的，然后进一步的问题询问个体在某些时候是如何成功地对抗“大黑云”的。
访谈结束
- 访谈结束后，个体可以回到座位上，退出角色扮演，恢复为原来的自己。

探索问题何时何地成功困扰个体

你是什么时候第一次侵入杰森的生活，你是怎么做到的？
你在破坏杰森的生活方面取得了哪些最大的成功？
是否有一个特别令人满意的时刻？
你做了什么来不断烦扰杰森？你能举一些例子吗？
如果杰森试图削弱你，你有没有找到反击他的方法？
你是如何设法让杰森让你控制他的？
杰森对哪种策略特别容易受到影响？
杰森最脆弱的时刻是什么时候？在这些时刻，你对他说了什么？
你招募了哪些盟友来帮助你实现目的（例如，其他问题、习惯、信念、价值观、文化假设）？
你有朋友帮助你继续烦扰杰森吗？
当杰森试图推开你时，你会做什么来让他再次让你回来？
你一定有一些险象环生的时刻。杰森几乎要战胜你的时候，发生了什么？
你给杰森传递了什么信息来帮助你留在他的生活中？

探索问题何时何地难以继续困扰个体

适合的问题，同样针对问题，包括：

你能想到一些杰森挫败你困扰他的努力的时刻吗？
杰森是怎么做到的？他做了什么不同的事情？
你有没有注意到杰森的某些变化，让你开始担心未来？
你对与杰森的关系被削弱的秘密恐惧是什么？
你是什么时候第一次意识到美好的旧时光可能要结束了？
面对杰森的反抗，你有什么计划重新确立自己？
你可以采取什么报复措施来试图让杰森回到原来的位置？
如果杰森继续变得更强大和独立，你会采取什么最后的绝望措施？
你认为在什么情况下你会接受自己的时代结束了，再也无法控制杰森？
你会继续为控制杰森而斗争，还是会最终放弃？

学习总结

外部化将问题与个体分开。
外部化邀请个体掌控问题。

参考文献和进一步阅读

Brown, C. & Augusta-Scott, T. (eds) 2007, Narrative Therapy: Making Meaning, Making Lives, SAGE, Thousand Oaks, CA.
Roth, S. & Epston, D. 1996, ‘Consulting the problem about the problematic relationship: an exercise for experiencing a relationship with an externalised problem’, in M. Hoyt (ed.), Constructive Therapies, Vol. 2, Guilford, New York, pp. 148-162.
White, M. 2007, Maps of Narrative Practice, Norton, New York.

进一步阐述

外部化的目的：通过将问题从个体中分离出来，帮助个体看到问题是一个独立的存在，而不是自身的一部分。这有助于个体减少对问题的认同感，从而更容易找到解决问题的方法。
角色扮演的作用：通过角色扮演，个体可以更客观地看待问题，从而更好地理解问题的本质和影响。这种体验性的方法有助于个体从不同的角度思考问题，增强他们应对问题的能力。
提问技巧：咨询师通过一系列有针对性的问题，帮助个体探索问题的各个方面，包括问题的成功之处和失败之处。这不仅有助于个体认识到自己的内在力量，还能激发他们寻找解决问题的新思路。
访谈后的讨论：访谈结束后，咨询师和个体可以一起讨论从体验练习中学到的东西。这有助于巩固外部化的成果，使个体在未来更好地应对问题。

通过外部化访谈，个体可以更好地理解和管理自己的问题，从而增强自信心和解决问题的能力。

21 Externalising As described throughout this book, integrative counsellors like to draw on useful skills from a variety of therapeutic approaches. The skills described in this and the following chapter come from Narrative Therapy and Solution-Focused Counselling and are particularly useful in enabling a person seeking help to make use of their strengths and seek solutions rather than negatively focus on their problems. These approaches are also useful in encouraging a person to take an optimistic view of the future. The skill of externalising described in this chapter has its origins in Narrative Therapy, which was originated by Michael White and David Epston. Readers interested in Narrative Therapy might like to read Maps of Narrative Practice (White, 2007). People generally come to counselling with a negative view and often see their problems as intractable, in responding to a person’s description of their problem, we can use language in a way that enables them to feel better about themselves and to take a more optimistic view about the possibility of change. This should not be taken to suggest that we are not interested in hearing about the person’s difficulties or wish to minimise them. Rather, while listening, we can be positive in using responses that help them recognise those inner strengths they have already used, while also opening up the possibility that solutions to their problems will be found. The skills involved in helping a person to make use of strengths, as described in this and the following chapter, are generally used by integrative counsellors du ling the stages in the counselling process where the emphasis is on helping the person to restructure their thoughts (see Figures 16.1 and 16.2). In this chapter we will describe how it can be helpful to a person seeking help for the counsellor to externalise the problem, or to use an externalising interview. EXTERNALISING THE PROBLEM The goal of externalising is to separate the troubling problem from the person, l he easiest way to explain this is through an example. A person might come to counselling believing that they are by nature an "anxious person’. While accepting that this is how they see themselves, it can be useful for the counsellor to describe the anxiety as though it has a separate and independent existence from the person. Hopefully, the result of this will be that the person will start to see themselves as someone who is troubled by anxiety, rather than as an intrinsically anxious person. If this happens, we say that the anxiety has been externalised, as it is now seen as separate from the person themselves, although it is troubling them. When a person is able to make such a change in their thinking, they generally become more empowered in dealing with their problem. This is because they can now start to think in terms of using strategies to control the problem rather than letting the problem control them, whereas previously they were seeing the problem and themselves as inextricably joined. In our example, if the person stops thinking about themselves as an anxious person and instead thinks about themselves as a person who is troubled by anxiety, they have a new perspective ot themselves and their anxiety. With their new frame of mind they can think about how the anxiety gets the better of them and explore ways in which they can control it. When externalising, the counsellor attempts to create a different atmosphere around the problem, one where the person sees their problem as not being intrinsic to them, but as something that is acting upon them from outside. In the example given, the person might say, 'I’m a very anxious person? The counsellor might respond to this by saying, 41 see you as a person who is troubled by anxiety. Somehow anxiety seems to get the better of you.’ The counsellor might then follow up by asking, ‘How does anxiety stop you from doing things you want to do?’ By taking this approach, the person’s frame of reference changes from 41 am an anxious person to 'anxiety causes a problem for me’. They are then in a position to be able to take responsibility for dealing with the anxiety rather than seeing the anxiety as a part of self. Externalising makes it possible for the person to experience a part of themselves that is separate from the problem. By doing this, they are able to feel that they can control their problem, or central issue, if they wish, because it is something external to them, which can be controlled, rather than something inherent in them, which cannot be controlled. Phis then opens up new possibilities for action. By externalising, the power is to some extent taken away from the problem and instead the person becomes empowered to control the problem. It can be seen that externalising demonstrates that the problem is the problem, where previously the person was seen as the problem. A good example of the use of the skill of externalising relates to helping people who have anger control problems. In such a case the counsellor might externalise the anger by asking questions such as, ‘Does your anger have control of you, or do you have control of your anger?7 and, 4How does your anger manage to trick you into letting it control you?’ Can you see how in asking these questions the person is able to see themselves not as an angry person but as a person who is troubled by anger, who has a responsibility to learn to control the anger rather than letting it control them? Clearly, externalising questions often lead to discussion about issues of control, fhe aim is to help the person gain control of unhelpful or unacceptable behaviour. Externalising requires a particular shift in the use of language. Rather than using sentences which begin with 'You are ... externalising statements use sentences beginning with the name of the problem. For example, instead of saying 'Yoh are anxious’ the language changes to 'anxiety stops you from doing the things you want to do’. Good examples of situations where it may be useful to externalise problems are when a person sees themselves as an alcoholic, a drug addict, a depressed or anxious person, or a failure. The counsellor might ask such a person how they came to think of themselves this way and encourage them to expand on their self-perceptions. If this is done, often the person will talk about how the problem influences or interferes with their behaviour. At this point the counsellor has an opportunity to separate, or externalise, the problem from the person by talking about the way that depression, alcohol, failure or anxiety is causing trouble for them, instead of talking about the person being depressed, being an alcoholic, being a failure or being anxious. Consider the case of a person who is troubled by depression. To help that person the counsellor might ask questions such as: How has depression restricted your Life? How does depression manage to trick you into letting it control you? What is the worst thing that depression has done to your life? When you try to get control of depression, what does it do to hook you back in? How is depression stopping you from doing what you'd like to be doing? How is depression holding you back? What is helping depression continue to cause a problem for you now? What have you noticed about yourself that has made you think that you might be able to overcome depression? What retaliatory measures could depression use to try to put you back where it wants you? What would depression do as a last desperate measure if you continue to become stronger and more independent? You may have noticed that some of these questions look at the way the problem has had success in interfering in the person’s life, whereas others focus on times when the person has had success in controlling the problem. Another useful way to help a person to fully accept the idea that the problem and themselves are two separate entities is to use the externalising interview as described by Roth and Epston (1996). THE EXTERNALISING INTERVIEW The externalising interview, developed by Roth and Epston (1996), appeals to those people who like to work experientially and are comfortable role-playing. The first step in the externalising interview is to help the person to recognise that the problem is separate from themselves. For example, if the person complains of being depressed, the counsellor needs to respond by saying something like, 'I don’t see you as a depressed person; instead I see you as someone who is troubled by depression. Somehow depression gets control of you at times.’ By saying this, the problem is separated from the person. I he next step is to invite the person to give the problem 'depression’ a name and, if they can, to describe it as having physical characteristics. For example, a person troubled by depression might say, 'Depression is like a big black cloud which engulfs me.’ I he counsellor might respond, 'Let’s call your depression the Big Black Cloud.’ The person can now be invited to role-play the Big Black Cibud. While role playing they need to be told and reminded when necessary’ that they are not themselves any more but are the Big Black Cloud. During role-playing it is best if both the person and the counsellor stand away from their chairs, so that the separateness of the Big Black Cloud from the person is made clear. The counsellor then behaves like an interviewer who questions the Big Black Cloud. Initially the questions are directed at finding out how the Big Black Cloud has had success in troubling the person and then further questions inquire about ways in which the person has been able to have success, at times, over the Big Black Cloud. After the interview the person can resume their seat so that they withdraw from role-playing the problem and revert to being themselves again. EXPLORING WHEN AND HOW THE PROBLEM HAS HAD SUCCESS IN TROUBLING THE PERSON In the first part of the interview the counsellor asks the problem how it has interfered with or influenced the person’s life. In the example where depression is the problem, imagine that the person is called Jason. The counsellor might say ‘Big Black Cloud, 1 am going to ask you some questions.’ Possible questions might include: When did you first manage to intrude on Jason's life and how did you do that? What have been your greatest successes in spoiling Jason s life? Was there one particular moment that was most gratifying? What have you managed to do in order to keep annoying Jason? Can you give some examples? Have you found ways to get back at Jason if he tries to undermine you? How do you manage to trick Jason into letting you control him? What kind of strategies is Jason especially susceptible to? What are Jason's most vulnerable moments? At these times what kind of things did you say to him? What kind of allies have you been able to recruit to aid your cause (for example, other problems, habits, beliefs, values, cultural assumptions)? Do you have any friends who help you to keep annoying Jason? When Jason tries to push you away, what do you do to trick him into letting you back? You must have had some narrow escapes. What about moments when Jason has almost managed to get the better of you? What messages do you give Jason to help you stay in his life? After asking some of these questions, next the counsellor needs to ask questions that can help the person recognise ways that they have been successful in combating the problem in the past.

EXPLORING HOW AND WHEN THE PROBLEM HAS DIFFICULTY IN CONTINUING TO TROUBLE THE PERSON Suitable questions, again addressed to the problem, include the following: Can you think of some times when Jason has frustrated your efforts to trouble him? How did Jason do this? What did he do differently? Is there anything you have noticed about Jason that has made you start worrying about the future? What are your secret fears about your relationship with Jason being undermined? When did you first realise that the good old days might be coming to an end? What plans do you have to reassert yourself in the face of Jason's defiance? What retaliatory measures could be used to try to put Jason back in his place? What would you do as a last desperate measure if Jason continues to become stronger and more independent of you? At what point do you think you would come to accept that your time is up and you will no longer be able to control Jason? Will you continue fighting for control over Jason or will you eventually give up? Questions such as these help the person to recognise that they can separate the problem from themselves, and that because the problem has an entity of its own they can, if they wish, use their own inner strength to control or manage it. After conducting the externalising interview, the person and the counsellor can process the role-play by discussing with each other anything that has been learnt from the experiential exercise. Hopefully the person will have discovered ways in which they can gain mastery over the problem in the future.

Learning summary Externalising separates the problem from the person. Externalising invites the person to take control of the problem. References and further reading Brown, C. & Augusta-Scott, I . (eds) 2007, Narrative Therapy: Making Meaning, Making Lives, SAGE, Thousand Oaks, CA. Roth, S. & EpstOli, D. 1996, ‘Consulting the problem about the problematic relationship: an exercise for experiencing a relationship with an externalised problem’, in M. Hoyt (cd.), Constructive Therapies, Vol. 2, Guilford, New York, pp. 148—62. White, M. 2007, Maps of Narrative Practice, Norton, New York.